Episode 16. Blake Lively, Colleen Hoover, and the Verity of It All with Superfan Laura Max Rose

Interview

Aug 27

An intimate book club discussion about Colleen Hoover's most twisted psychological thriller.

Today, David welcomes back returning guest Laura Max Rose, a brilliant podcaster, mom, and self-proclaimed Colleen Hoover super fan. Together, they dive deep into the psychological twists of Verity and discuss the drama surrounding the adaptation of It Ends with Us.

In this special book club edition, David and Laura engage in a gossipy, friendly conversation about one of Colleen Hoover's most gripping psychological thrillers: Verity.

Verity is a masterfully twisted narrative that follows Lowen Ashleigh, a struggling writer hired to complete the remaining books in a successful series by Verity Crawford, a bestselling author who has been incapacitated by a car accident. As Lowen explores Verity's notes and unfinished manuscripts in her home, she discovers a hidden, chilling autobiography that reveals dark and disturbing secrets about Verity's life, marriage, and children. The deeper Lowen delves into the manuscript, the more she questions everything—including her own safety.

Whether you're a devoted Colleen Hoover reader or curious about what makes her psychological thrillers so captivating, this episode offers an intimate peek into the mind of a super fan and provides insights into the book's intricate plot twists and emotional impact.

Listen to the full episode on your favorite podcast platform.

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“I’ve read so many of Colleen’s books, and I’ve never gotten to discuss them with a friend at the same time. This is such a special opportunity.”

— Laura Max Rose

Transcript

Today, I am thrilled to welcome back a returning guest, the fabulous Laura Max Rose. If you don't already know Laura, she is not only a brilliant podcaster and mom extraordinaire, but also a full blown Colleen Hoover super fan. Laura's love for Colleen's books is as contagious as it is passionate. And today, we're diving deep into the twisted world of verity and dishing all the juicy gossip about the drama surrounding the movie adaptation of It Ends with Us. Buckle up because this conversation is going to be as wild as a Colleen Hoover plot twist. Hey there, design enthusiast. Welcome to Inside the Design Studio, a podcast where we unravel threads of life and design. I'm your host, David Peck, your guide through the cosmic wonders, the tangible touches, and the delightful twists of creating a life you absolutely love. Today's episode is a special peek into my eclectic toolbox, the secret weapons I use to design a life that's as vibrant as my creations. So grab your metaphorical sketch pad and let's dive into the art of intentional living. So Verity is a psychological thriller that centers around Lo and Ashley, a struggling writer who is hired to compete, the remaining books in a successful series by Verity Crawford, a bestselling author who has been incapacitated due to a car accident. As Lo goes through Verity's notes and unfinished manuscripts in the author's home, she stumbles upon a hidden, chilling autobiography that reveals dark and disturbing secrets about Verity's life, including her marriage and her children. The deeper Loan delves into the manuscript, the more she begins to question everything, including her own safety. So welcome, Laura, to the podcast again. I'm so glad to have you back. I feel so lucky to get to be back on here. This is the best. Thank you for having me. You're so welcome. And this is a very special edition of the book club because we're recording this ahead of time. Normally we do this live, but because of... We're both parents and I'm traveling and all of the things. We are gonna just like have a very gossipy friendly conversation about this book and I hope you guys like it. Perfect, I can't wait. I'm always dying to have a gossipy friendly conversations about Colleen Hoover books and I'm never reading them at the same time as my friends. So I never get to do this. So I'm so pumped and I can't wait to dive in. Awesome, well, you are the self-reclaimed and... I'm just super fan of Colleen Hoover. I don't know how you've read so many of Colleen's books in the amount of time that you have, but you have. And you have a whole podcast episode about this. So if people really want to hear your thoughts on all of Colleen's books, you need to go and check that episode out and I'll have that linked in the show notes. But so what got you started on Colleen and what was the first book that you read? All I like so many others, the first book that I read by Colleen was It Ends With Us, which we all now know is a major movie in theaters and I've already seen it twice. I read It Ends With Us when it first came out. I don't think it was, it was sometime in 2016. The book came out in 2016 and it's sequel, It Starts With Us didn't come out until 2020. And It Starts With Us was then the second book of hers that I read. I was not a very big reader. I feel like there were not really any books that I read between those two. I just liked these two books. And then when I read it starts with us, I was like, okay, I need more. I need more. I then read Verity, which we're going to talk about today. Um, and still, I mean, reading was just not this huge part of my life. I, I didn't really know how to integrate it into my life. I didn't think of myself as a reader. And this year in March, I don't know what happened or why. I don't remember what the first book I read was, but I read some book and I just didn't want it to end. And I guess it was called, it was a Colleen Hoover book again. I think it was ugly love. And it is absolutely one of my favorite books by her. And I not only didn't want, I didn't want the book to end. And the only way I could see that happening would be if I were to keep reading books by the same author. So I read another book and another book, and it got me so into reading, but reading Colleen Hoover specifically that I just decided I was gonna read every single book by her. And I figured I would stop. reading after I finished all 24 of her books. Like how could anyone be better? But honestly, the opposite happened. I have read so many books this year since March, that it's honestly really insane. And she just made me fall in love with reading. And I've heard so many people say that I think that the way that she writes gives people who don't identify as readers an opportunity to totally fall in love with reading, which was what I did. And I feel like adult life and business and all of that has kind of gotten me away from reading for pleasure the way I used to all the time. And so I read a lot because I read business books and things about being a good entrepreneur and a good person and like all that. But I wasn't reading novels. And I feel like something very similar happened to me in this last year. And one of the reasons we started the book club was because we got all these books in the store and I was like, well, I've got to read them. So I started reading for fun again. So now what I'm trying to do is I balance like every, for every business book that I read, I will read something that is just for fun. And, you know, that kind of just brings me joy. And I feel like it fuels my creativity in a way that the non-fiction books don't. Because you really have to kind of like picture who these characters are. And I haven't told you this, but at the end of our discussion of Verity, we're gonna cast the future movie version. And I purposely have not looked up who they have rumored to be starring in. So just keep... Actually, this is the first time hearing that this is not just a fan desire, that they're really gonna make this movie. I've heard that it is happening. And I heard an interview with Colleen saying that she wanted, it ends with us to be the first movie and she wants the next movie to be Verity. So... whether or not that, you know, movie production, you know, it's all rumors until it actually appears. But it seems logical, maybe, that Verity could actually materialize. That's so fascinating to me. And I want to get into this in this conversation, and we'll talk about it and the sort of fascination with Verity. As somebody who has read all of her books, this is, this may shock some. I found it to be one of the least memorable. That's so interesting. When I was listening to Preparing for This, I was listening to interviews with Colleen, and she said it was, she was sort of shocked by Verity herself in the sense that all of the books she had written were very romantic or have romance as sort of some part or large part of the plot lines. And she wrote Verity and actually presented it to her family and they're like, oh, well, there you are. this is really who you are. They're like, we didn't understand where all the romance stuff came from. This didn't seem like it was you and Verity felt to them, the twisted part felt more Colleen to them than all the other things. And she said she actually identifies with that but knows that this romance thing, this modern romance, whatever it is, genre that she's created. is what most readers identify with severity in many ways is apart from the rest of her work. Interesting. I can see that because having read all of her books, there is sort of this common thread. It's obviously a huge part of her, the part of her that wrote that book. And I can absolutely see that because she is the only author that, she's the only contemporary romance novelist who like randomly writes a thriller. I guess there are a few others, but her, what I say to people about her because, you know, the New York Times has called her writing low brow and like all this stuff. I think we've talked about this before and it got me thinking, you know, what do I really like her writing and what is her writing really like? And I started reading her books like through that lens. I actually read, it starts with us for a second time, really through this lens of, of critiquing her, which was not something I had been doing before. And here's what I think makes her so special. Um, it's not her writing style that makes her so special. It's her ability to come up with and tell a story. And Verity is the, Verity is the best example of that. I will say that Verity is a story like who the hell could come up. How the hell I want to like get into her head. Like what were you smoking? How, how did you come up with this? Like who, this is like not even, this is like a level above the sixth sense. Like when M night Shyamalan decided that like Haley Joel Osmond was going to see dead people. Sorry, if I ruined the ending for you just there, but like it was 40 years or whatever. Yeah. Right. Something like that. I was like, what, what is, what is going on? And I had that with another one of her books, which is much less popular. And this is really funny that I know this. There's like only two of her books that have four stars instead of five. And one of them is Layla and Layla is like her only ghost story. And it is the other book that has, I think, the biggest twist out of any of the books that she's ever written. And I'm like, what was she? How did she come up with this? And it was just it was just reinforced. I mean, she is to be able to think of 24 stories like that and write them. That's legendary behavior. It's legendary. Well, I think it's a lot of storytelling so much is if we're talking about marketing and business, it is what connects us to people. And she, I think. in many ways has not isolated herself from her fan base. Like she has like all these forums and like you can kind of join the chat and like she really includes people. And so I think the storytelling part really comes from like that community aspect and then like this brilliant messed up brain that is able to kind of create these characters, especially in Verity. So now I'm interested to read Layla because yeah. Cause I haven't, I have not read her other books and I have not seen it ends with us yet. So I'm coming into this. This is my only Colleen Hoover book is Verity. So I have no context. So I'm really relying on you to give me the context. Have you ever read, have you read it ends with us or you like haven't even read it? Okay. So I really, you really do need to read it though, before you watch it. Like if that means you're not watching it in theater is fine. But I really. The love story between there's, there's some layers of love stories. I'm not going to give any of it away, but one of the love stories in the, in the, in the book, I don't think like I think the movie literally did the best job it possibly could have. And there was a review written about it that said, this is the best onscreen adaptation of a book ever created. And I actually agree with that. I mean, it was so incredibly accurate, but it's impossible to capture a book in a two hour long film. So I think you really need to watch it. You really do need to read it first. And Layla is not going to like knock you off your feet the way Verity is. I'm going to say that right now. There are other books that I think will. But the twist in the end is like, it's amazing. Well, I think what drew me to like Verity, one was that we had it in the store and I knew it was popular. But two was I love Hitchcockian type stories, like growing up. Like those are the I mean, a perfect murder, like Gwyneth Paltrow, like those kind of things like that is just completely my jam. I have, I mean, not that I haven't read any romance novels. Like I, well, actually, I hadn't really read any until more in this past year when I've read like the more zeitgeisty ones, like The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. And that was like part of our book club, too. But that's not typically something that I read. But now that now that we're having this conversation, I will have to read it ends with us. OK, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts. And then we'll come back and have another podcast episode about it. It's like, how many, you know, I'm here for that. I'm so here for that. Okay. So we're not going to necessarily, we can talk. I think we can talk about the book and there are going to be some spoilers. So if people don't want to know what happens, but it's been out for quite a few years. So, you know, do with that what you will. If you didn't know that Haley Joe Osment saw dead people, you are, you're probably fine living under a rock. Maybe. But what's interesting about this book is that there are two versions of the book. So there's the original version that ends with the plot twist of a letter. And then there is the second edition, the special edition of the book. And have you read that version? I did not even know that there were two versions, David. I what? No. Yeah, you're going to have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah. So there's a second version of the book where there's an epilogue after everything happens and it. sheds a different light on what happened in the book. And it may or may not change your mind on who you think is telling the truth. I think I read that one, because I remember having whiplash from how much back and forth there was, and it was just like exhausting. OK, so you read the full version of the book and not the original version. OK, so that's interesting. So we've got Loan, who is our protagonist, who is the narrator. It's written in first person. I mean, at first, I mean, I tend to take everything at face value, but the deeper you get into the story, and especially I feel like when you get to the letter and then maybe even especially the epilogue, you're unsure whether or not she's a reliable narrator. And even if she knows that she's an unreliable narrator, there's like layers of psychological trauma and everything that make you kind of question that. But the... cast of characters in this book is relatively small. Like you've got her, you've got Loan, and then you've got Jeremy, and you've got Verity. Like you've got, that's basically it. And some kids who may or may not have killed each other. Yes. So. It's very traumatizing. So this book is not, I think it leans into a lot of the tropes of like shock value, but when you were reading it, did it sort of, what shocked you the most or what like, I mean, even repulsed in the end where, where Verity is in her hospital bed in the, in the room and the house and like comes to life. And then they're in this huge knockdown drag out. And, you know, we all, we both know how that ends, but just the intensity of that scene is what I think of whenever I think about this book. I also just think about, you know, her like Loan and Jeremy sort of like falling in love under like this extremely messed up circumstance. And like how uncomfortable I was with that and how I just, I can remember just like how uncomfortable I was with this woman being in this house and lurking. And I kind of knew that there had to have been something more than she was just like this lurker. I knew she was alive and well. Like I had figured that out pretty early on, which I think most people did that she was fine. physically, but I didn't really know why that was going on. And I just hated her like anyone would have, right? When they got read further on. And then when the story ends with this epilogue, I'm just gutted because I don't understand what just happened. And I found it to be very unsatisfying. Whereas like that is not a feeling I've gotten with any of Colleen's other books. And I think a lot of people really enjoy that. I don't read. to like feel that way at the end of a book. I read for conclusion, I read for like joy. I just was like, wait, I just, and when you were just telling me that they're gonna make a movie out of that book, I'm like, okay, I mean, I guess, but like, I also feel like our society is, this is a whole other conversation, but it's like, could we have a few more happy endings? Like, could we just have a few more? Like, I know we went too far with Disney, but like, can we just like bring back some of that? like a little bit, I feel like we're like, we're like overcompensating, but your, your question, to answer your question, I think the most shocking scene for me was that scene where they're having that huge fight and, you know, not to give too much away in case you really don't want it to be spoiled. Where it all ends with them. Yeah, right. Exactly, yes. I think, I mean, the first sentence in the book is pretty, I mean, just like full on, I mean, Somebody gets killed in the first sentence of the book. And the blood, like, splashing on her. I remember that. Popping like a champagne cork. And, like, I'm not prudish in any way, but I did find, like... It's very graphic in terms of its depictions of sexuality. And sort of... Like, not in a... David, welcome to the world of Colleen Hoover. But, like, also, let me just tell you something. Colleen Hoover is like a gateway drug. Like... That this is, I used to think that I remember reading Verity and being like, Whoa. And like, I read something recently that made me feel that way. And it is so many brackets above Verity. And I'm like, this is out of control. Like, I feel like, I think like Colleen Hoover basically made that like a social norm. These novels used to have like naked, like Harlequin romance covers. And like now they're just normal. And we could just buy them and we They used to have them. Not Verity, but like the books that I think a lot of people, like a lot of Colleen Hoover's books would have been the type of books that I think you would see one of those covers on like 10 years ago. Like the Avon books, like when I was like, yeah. Her book, Ugly Love is like, it's just whatever you thought was graphic about Verity, that's the entire book. And like the first 10 pages are not that, but yeah, they're very, very graphic. And I think... I find it very funny. Like I get sort of a chuckle out of the fact that like her books are all like, they've sold like million. I don't know how many copies they've sold, but I mean, Verity was at the top of the bestseller list. Like within the past year, it was written a while ago, considering that it's recently the bestselling book. And like, no one talks about that. We just all kind of read it. And then we're like, Oh, it was amazing, but nobody talks about that. Well, it wasn't like, I don't know that it was, it was just so frank. And I think so much, I think it's from a, I mean, female gaze maybe is the, it was very female empowered, like kind of sexuality in many ways. How did you feel reading that? Like as a man, I was curious to ask, I was like actually thinking to ask you that. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think it was just, it was just sort of. I think because she is so forward about it, it was in some ways like refreshing because I think most women that I know, at least in who are comfortable like talking about sex or whatever, like that is how they kind of, they're pretty frank about it. Like it's not, I mean, that's the modern world. So it's not really something that people are shy about. So it was interesting to read a book that was not, that came from a female perspective that was that frank. So I think in that way it was refreshing and that was probably also why it wasn't shocking, but why it stood out to me so much that it was so frank, not because it was any more graphic than anything else I had read, but like probably because it came from a female point of view. Yeah, I remember that too. I remember wanting, I think a lot of her other books provide the perspective of like both a male and female character pretty equally. And if it, like, if the book does it, so for example, like my favorite book by her is hopeless. I don't know if I read it again, if I'd feel that way, but as it stands, that's my favorite by her. And the sequel to hopeless is losing hope and losing hope is the same book from the perspective of the male lead. And it's really, really cool. I actually think it's sort of better in a lot of ways, but every single book she's really written, other than Verity, I think does this amazing job of like kind of balancing those two perspectives. This one, I remember when I look back at that book, I remember wanting more of the, I wanted Jeremy's perspective. I felt like it was very led by Loin, and I wanted more, I wanted to know more of what he was thinking and what was going on for him. But do you think that's part of why the book ending is so mysterious? Yes. Because you only get one perspective. Yeah, I have no idea what was going on. Exactly. Like, is Jeremy good? Is Jeremy bad? Is he somewhere in between? Did he react out of love or was he a calculated killer the entire time? Like, who is he? Because you have no idea. Because when you read Verity's manuscript... So there's people who are either the manuscript or they're the letter. So the manuscript is Verity's telling of... the whole story. And then the plot twist is the letter at the end, basically, spoiler alert, saying, it's all fake. I wrote it as a writing exercise. And actually, Jeremy's awful. So there's each of those teams. And then there's the epilogue where Loan and Jeremy have like run away and they run into an old neighbor and who recognizes them and Jeremy drowns her. Oh! Wow, I don't think I did read that. Okay, so you have to go and like read this. Now I need to read that. Yeah, so the shock was the letter. And then at the very end is like, they are, I can't remember in the Carolinas or something on a beach, run into the woman that they met at Target. And she says, he says something about, oh, your husband or whatever. And he intentionally says the wrong name because she knew she was having an affair. And there was like a weird look or whatever. And he tells Loan, like, oh yeah, I said that, but because I knew that was the not her husband's name, it was the other guy. Anyway, they meet that woman on the beach and she kind of susses out that Loan got pregnant or had to have been pregnant at Verity's funeral, like by the age of the baby and like everything. And so Jeremy tells them to go away and he like basically drowns her in like bookends and then... Loan's like left going, wait, what? Oh my God. I'm like, did I, I'm like, now you're saying it. And I'm wondering, it didn't stick out to me. I'm having that sort of thing where like, you're telling me something and I'm wondering if I actually read it. I think that even if I read that or not, which unfortunately I can't recall because I've read so many books this past year, I think I didn't like him. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I liked him at all. Like, I don't... He struck me. Like, well, what was interesting to me is from Loan's perspective and Verity's in the manuscript, he is presented as being, like, this perfect specimen of a man in every single way. Yes. Like, physically, he couldn't be more perfect. Like, as a... Like, he's like this forward-thinking kind of feminist man. Like, he's very... perfect. Yeah. And it's like, what is... does he have a hold on these women that makes them see this? And then it's not until the very end when, like, in Lowen's, you know, maybe taking a second look at, like, is it really as perfect as she always thought it was? Well, here's a deeper question about that. This is not the only book. I mean, I feel like maybe 22 out of 24 of Colleen Hoover's books start with a male specimen that is physically and emotionally idealistic and perfect. And that is how all of the authors who are calling Hoover adjacent, like Rebecca Yaros is like calling one of Colleen Hoover's very good friends. And she wrote the fourth wing, which is like number one everywhere. And she's written all these other books. I actually haven't read the fourth wing, but I've read a bunch of her other books and they all start off with her really describing the male lead character, like very graphically. And he's very like physically beautiful and just has this like incredible personality. What's fascinating to me is like Rebecca Yaros is married and so is Colleen Hoover. And if you look at their husbands, their husbands are like, they're on the same level of attraction as Rebecca Yaros and Colleen Hoover, but they're not like, they don't have, what is it? They're not, they're not like, you know, exactly. And I think when you meet somebody and like you fall in love with them, that stuff actually like, yes, of course it plays a role in whether or not you're initially attracted to somebody, but it's totally not like the stuff you think about. very much after the beginning, you know, I think at least like for me, I know like a lot of people that would agree with that. And you've got these two women who like, they're like these happily married women and they're writing these very, very graphic novels about these like gorgeous male specimens. And I'm so curious about like what it is that we find like so interesting and important about that. Like I get it, but I also, I don't know. I wish I could like get into their heads and like why, like, I don't know. Rebecca UR has six children. I think Colleen Hoover has three children. I have three children. And I'm like, what would make me sit down at my desk and start typing a novel? Like this man who's like perfectly caught and has like V lines like under his abs. And like, I don't, my brain is not like, doesn't like think that like, isn't going to come up with that right now at this stage of my life. And it's really fascinating to me that like, that's something that they're that they write about that they also know they seem to know very well is what their audience wants. They have written countless books like this, that like women love, like, like we love reading these books about these like sort of idealistic characters. And I'm so, I always want to understand like, why are we like this? What makes us the way that we are? And so of course I can't just enjoy the damn book. I have to ask myself a million questions about what it is that makes people like these books in the first place. I just find that really interesting. And I know like in all of Colleen's books, she's managed to write about like 22 different male characters who are all perfect in completely different ways. And I sometimes wonder what it would have been like for me if I read those books when I was single. And would I have had like really, really like unrealistic expectations of life and love. And that would have been, that would have made it very difficult for me to have understood like other people's humanity. Like, I wonder what that like, I always think about what role that's playing on our psyche, but anyway, that's not what you had me on here for. So we can talk about Verity more. But that's, I think, what is so interesting about books is that they are not just about the plot or the characters themselves, but it's about how we end up looking at ourselves because of them. Yes. And I think even something that is low brow in the words of critics. It's obviously inspiring a deeper conversation, and it's not just surface level, like, smut or whatever. It's just, it is causing you to think more deeply about your own self and how you view, I don't know, like your own relationship maybe, or I don't know. Like, I think, is it the same kind of thing with people who say that porn is sort of an idealized or unrealistic expectation to have? You know, in turn, and it does that ruin the real relationship and intimacy because of that. And there's people on both sides who say, you know, yes, it's absolutely horrible. And like, you know, that's going to ruin every relationship you ever have. And there are other people like, no, it's healthy. It's fun. And, you know, it's and probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't know. Right. Yeah. But like, you know, is this the same kind of thing where? And I wonder, too, like, what their husbands think of these idealism. Or if they even read the books. Because I know that Colleen has said her children never read the books until I think her son started asking if Verity was a true story. And she's like, no, absolutely not. Oh, my God, that's so funny. Because it ends with us is the one that is it's not autobiographical, but it is elements of her mother's story. I guess, and that for her is the most personal. But Verity is the one that she said she had the most fun writing in, but it's so not her. So then her son was reading it. So I think that is an interesting thing. You're putting something out in the world that is frank and graphic in many ways, and also in this instance, very twisted. And it's like, what do your loved ones do with that? Yeah, I'm always so curious about that. Like I'm so Like I don't know I think about like my life and like if I had crept off into like a hotel like I know A lot of them write in quiet hotel rooms because they have like young children and if I had like crept off into a hotel room for three months and written like an explicit novel about sex and then like Look what I got You want to read this? Like, I don't know. I want to know. I want to be like a fly on the wall for that. And like, I just like want to know how that, how that goes down. Like, I would like to watch your mother read it. Right. I'm so curious. I'm so incredibly curious about that. I also, I think like in a lot of ways it's been, I don't know, I've watched like so many people get into these books lately and I feel like there's the sort of like phenomenon happening in our society. around just being more open and honest and vulnerable. And I think that that's a positive thing. I think a lot of our art in many regards is getting better. I see our shows are so much more interesting and I can't say the same for our movies right now, unfortunately, but I think we might be turning a tide there. But I look at the way people are reading and how the algorithms have changed the way authors are writing. They're really writing to get like, that best of book talk stamp. And like, I think that's actually kind of cool because I think books have gotten a lot better. So I don't know, I just find the way that we are and what we find interesting to be so fascinating. And one of my biggest gripes with places like the New York times and publications like the New York times calling, calling Hoover, lowbrow is you're failing to look at something so much larger. You know, you're critiquing her writing style and perhaps her educational background. But what about looking at how many people are reading this? Like, can we talk about? Yeah. It's having an impact. Yeah. It's having an impact, which like, I mean, we could say the same thing about how the New York Times handled the 2016 election. Like, don't write everyone off who's like subscribing to something you don't understand. Like, is that what I subscribe to? Absolutely not. But like, we can't afford to do that anymore. So Colleen Hoover is way more low stakes, right? Like, It's okay if the New York Times writes her off, but I find it to be really unfortunate because I want us to look at the bigger picture. I want us to look at why. Why are all these people finding this interesting? I think it's the same thing that you have with these very high brow critics who are critiquing even theater and Broadway. They're not giving rave reviews to the shows that are successful. Yeah. And I love an indie, don't get me wrong, like I love an indie thing more than anybody. I mean, and I can also love something that is like very of the moment, cop cultures, like, like they don't have to be mutually exclusive. And I think they feed very different parts of our psyche. And sometimes, especially probably with the world being as crazy as it is, we need moments like that, that feel escapist, even if we're reading about like, maybe serial killers, you know, under our own roofs. Yeah, yeah, seriously. So in thinking about these characters, like, so you didn't like Jeremy, what was your impression of Verity? Oh, you know, obviously, I vacillated a lot with her, but I felt very, very badly for her when I like, you know, was, you know, she was telling us about her manuscript not being real and. Um, that it was just like a way that she was getting things out. Um, I found that, you know, I didn't, I, I remember like not holding anything against her once I heard that and feeling like, wow, that was a very interesting way of dealing with this, but also like feeling like she was this very, this human being that many people could empathize with. And then I also wanted her like gone because I felt like she was such a, like she was such a nuisance to the storyline. Does that make any sense? Well, did you believe her? Did you believe the letter? I didn't want to believe her because I was like, this is not what I have. I think authors, they get us to really root for one of their characters. And so I'm over here rooting for Loan and Jeremy. And then I find out that their whole reason for being together is over. And I didn't want her to end up with Jeremy. I know that. I didn't want that to be the way that the story went, if that answers your question. Did I believe her? I think I did believe her. I think I was very, very scared because I knew that she was murdered and she was absolutely telling the truth. And I, and she was telling the truth that she was lying. And I was very like, I remember just being so anxious for Loewen and Jeremy after that, that they had this very big secret. That's so interesting. So I did not believe her. Really? I thought the manuscript was true because I felt like. things in the letter didn't quite add up. Yes, she sort of broke them down, but then there were other things like with the car accident and saying that her hands were taped and everything, there was no residue. Like there was stuff that just didn't quite add up to me. And so at first I was like, oh, this is her last final straw at trying to basically destroy Jeremy and Loan because, and then admitting to like locking the door on them so that she could like hide the letter and everything. No. So I did not believe her. What threw me for a loop was then the epilogue when then Jeremy kills the neighbor. And then I'm like, Oh, that would make you like, that would make her right. Right. Or were they both just terrible? I think, I think in the end they were both terrible. I think that Verity was absolutely awful. And I think that, and I don't know, like, I don't know how calculated Jeremy is because was because when they first met Verity and Jeremy, they met at this sort of like charity fundraiser thing. I remember that. And they were both lying. They, it was a very high ritzy, you know, kind of crowd and neither one of them were at the time. And they were both there to try to find somebody who was, but then they found each other. So, but they were both lying about it. And... Oh, I never honed in on that. that they were both liars. Yeah, they were both lying. I think we just figured that out. I think they were both lying, David. Yeah. So I think Jeremy was lying, but how much was he lying? And did he really, like, and then, like, if he really was trying to kill Verity, I mean, then why would he want Loan to leave? And I don't know. There were just things in the... that didn't quite add up. But then at the very end, when he then killed the neighbor, it's like, well, what happened to... I mean, was that sort of a, I don't know, like a Mr. Ripley kind of thing, where it just sort of like you fall into this trap because you can't help but do it now that you've like, kind of started killing, you can't stop. Or is it, you know, that he's always been this devious and then, you know, it makes you rethink everything with the children and like what really happened with the kids and like, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. And so I... Listen to an interview today with Colleen and she, the, they asked her like who she thought was telling the truth or telling the truth or Verity was telling the truth. And she said that she didn't know at first. And so she was like, I don't know. Like I write these things and I'm not quite sure. So like she goes, but if I had to guess, I would say Verity's lying. Interesting, but she says it that way. Yeah, and I thought that was really interesting, but she still wasn't sure. Like she almost puts herself in the reader's point of view, where she like wrote the thing, channeled the thing, I don't know. And then like doesn't like she's channeling. I do feel like she's channeling. Like sometimes when I'm reading her writing, I'm like, do you know how this is going to end? I don't really know if she always knows. Yeah, and she says. I don't know that she does, because she said her writing process is very linear. Like, she'll sketch out, like, certain scenes or things that she wants to have happen. But she said she writes, like, she'll write chapter one and sort of edit it, finish it, whatever, and then chapter two and do that. And she doesn't go back and, like, re-edit the entire thing, except for when she's working with her publisher to kind of, like, bring the book to press. But, like, in terms of the actual story, she's not going back and trying to figure out everything. She kind of does it, like, linear, linearly. chapter by chapter. So it would make sense that like she is sort of channeling something and it's like, I don't know that she always knows where it's going. I can tell when I'm reading her writing actually that she doesn't always know, but she always that kind of ends up bringing it together in a really amazing way. I think I knew, I don't think that there was an answer to the question that we're asking because I think I knew when I was reading it that she didn't have that answer either. Yeah. I think I knew that like reading it that she really didn't know. And she kind of wanted us to figure it out. I guess she's the ultimate unreliable narrator because... Right? Ultimate. Seriously. Okay, so if you were gonna cast this as a movie, like who, what type of people? Like I, before I knew... Exactly. Oh my God. Go ahead though. No, no, no. I wanna hear you first, but I will just say that who I would have cast... I'm not going to change it based on, um, it ends with us, but yeah. Anyway, go ahead. Oh, you should go first because I'm looking up the name. Okay. All right. Lowen is Natasha Leon. Oh my goodness. That is quite a, like, asking against type. I don't, do you really think so? Because she's, I mean, Natasha Leon, the gravelly voice and the, you know, you should talk like- The curly, with the curly blonde hair though. And like the way that she- I think I remember one of my gripes with Verity was that she didn't describe what the characters looked like very well. And I remember having a very, very hard time visualizing them. So for me, Loan had like curly blonde hair. Not sure where I got that from, but I think I, I always saw her as looking like a sort of Natasha Lyonne type character, but younger like the way Natasha Lyonne looked in American pie, not the typical role that the Natasha Lyonne plays. but just that type of person who's not conventionally attractive. I definitely did not. I remember also not thinking that Loan was a super attractive woman. Did you think that? Did you think she was super attractive? I thought it was sort of like an ugly duckling thing where she didn't think she was, but she actually is. I never thought that she actually was though. Like her thoughts about herself convinced me. So I felt like Natasha Lyonne was like, yeah, go ahead. Oh, but that's so interesting, because I think women do that to themselves. And I wonder, like, as a man looking at it, like, I don't know. Like, I... It's... Because of her own health and mental health issues, it seemed to me like she was... I don't know, it was... To me, I think, and this is not necessarily who she cast, because she's not the right age, but like, Jennifer Gardner alias kind of thing, where somebody who can kind of look kind of plain Jane, but can be, you know... something else. Jennifer Garner's too together for me to have been this woman. This woman did not seem together to me. No, I just meant in terms of turn to the looks. Yeah, sorry. I have something. I'm super fun. It was definitely like, yeah, I didn't see her as being a conventionally attractive person at all. Even like short and kind of stout, like not, yeah, not like really well-kempt. And Jeremy would be like, A tall, dark and handsome man. Sort of like a, go. I know who it, Matt Bomer. Okay, Matt Bomer. What is Matt Bomer in? Help me. He was in, not suit, the other one, white collar. And then he, fellow travelers with Jonathan Bailey from Bridgerton. He was just in, he's like very stereotypical, like beautiful man. Like, very, just like very, very pretty. And you're like, how do you? It looks like that. Yeah. I think like dark, like darker, like skin, dark hair. He's got dark hair. He's very, yeah. Sort of like, you know, Justin Baldoni played Ryle Kincaid, which a lot of people like were frustrated with that initially and thought that, that Ryle Kincaid in the book didn't look like Justin Baldoni. I thought Justin Baldoni was the perfect person to play that character. And I, I think somebody sort of Justin Baldoni adjacent would be the right person for this. Yeah, totally. And then I think Verity is like the blonde. tall, thin, like almost like what Tara Reed used to look like. I'm making a lot of American pie references right now. I don't know what's going on with me. Like a young Helen Hunt, maybe more. See, I see Verity as being very like, um, Kate Blanchett kind of very austere, somebody who's, I don't know, it could like, Yes. Kate Blanchett. A little icy. Who are they talking about casting? Ververity, do we know? I don't know. I intentionally did not look because I typically will see something and then I'm like, shoot. Well, then I end up casting Zendaya and everything. So it's just that doesn't work right there. Interesting. What is it about her? You just really love her? I think she's just interesting and such a cool. There's just something enigmatic about Zendaya that, I don't know. And she's like, I mean, I want to see the red carpets too. So that kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a very, like, her, like, she just is so beautiful. You know, I, like, wanna see everything that she's in. I totally get it. Yeah. Or maybe if we're thinking, like, a little younger. Okay, so here's who I originally would have cast as, and this is, would have been, like, skewing everything a little bit younger. And this was before the whole casting of It Ends With Us, is I would have cast, like, somebody like Blake Lively as Verity. Mm. And sort of, like... Kind of the, you know, yeah, that's who I would have kind of thought. I wouldn't have thought of Blake as Loan at all. I don't think anybody thought of Blake as being the character that she's playing right now. So I think she's like interesting. I mean, I saw her in this movie and I was like actually blown away by her ability. Her portrayal of this character. I think she could probably do a very good job as Verity. Yeah. Be kind of cool if she did play Verity. Because have you seen, is it a simple plan with Blake? Yes. That is such a Verity character. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. So maybe she wouldn't do it because she's already kind of played that character, and they're coming out with a simple plan too. So it probably, that is not going to happen. I mean, I could see somebody like even Brie Larson, if you were going to go on the younger side for everything, which Hollywood tends to do. She can have that iciness to her and that kind of whatever, but maybe there's something. Yeah. behind it. These are all really good. I'm not as good at this as you, David. You're really good at this. In my other life, I was a casting director, I'm pretty sure. I think you were, honestly. I do. But we can't end this conversation without talking about what's going on with Blake Lively and Justin Baldini, right? We definitely need to talk about the Blake and Justin of it all. So thoughts. I'm so heartbroken and upset about this. Like... I have so many feelings, David. I'm just so glad that you asked me about this, even though I prompted you to do it. I can talk about this for- No, but I wanted to. I wanted to. I mean, this is what makes this book- I literally need a therapy session about this. So I am so invested in this book being turned into a movie. I am so obsessed with this author, and I've read so much about her and just how much she cares about... She comes off to me as being very reserved. I think her fame is difficult for her. That's what I've... Have you gathered that just reading about Colleen? She seems like a very normal person. Yeah. Like her pain. Yeah. And she's just like, whoa. And then like Blake Lively is playing the character in her book. I mean, I don't know if they were like they really had like very, very little when she wrote her first book and it became this bestseller. It's Slammed was her first book. Amazing. Read it. And, you know, she had like all the success that she wasn't expecting. And I think. Oh my God, next thing you know, Blake Lively is playing the lead character in this book. Well, everyone initially is just like, oh my God, this is the wrong cast and everyone's freaking out. And I remember Colleen just being so upset about this and I'm feeling for Colleen. And she actually came out and said, I want everyone to just like have faith that this was the right cast and they're doing an amazing job. And I'm like, okay, I will do that for you. I'm gonna do that because I totally thought it was the wrong cast too. So right before the movie comes out, Blake Lively is like having this moment. I mean, I was talking to one of my friends about this on a regular, like every day, twice a day, we were sending each other voice notes about like Blake, the Blake Lively era that we were living in. I felt like this woman, I just, she has four children. I have three. She has this thriving career. She seems so authentic, so vulnerable. So like, I don't know, everything to me, actually to the point that I was telling my friend, I ruthlessly compare myself to Blake Lively. Like, I feel like she's who I am. Like, yeah, I actually like feel like she's like who I am, like on my, this is how I felt like a few weeks ago or a month ago. I go see the movie and I'm like totally in the back of my mind, just that like Blake Lively is, you know, in her Blake Lively era. I'm seeing this movie and I'm blown away by not just her performance, but the one I was really blown away by was Justin Baldoni. Then... on my way to, on my way to see the movie the first time, the same friend that I've been talking about Blake Lively with is like, have you seen this drama? Like apparently they're not being photographed together. Like what it really bothered me. Well, then I get out of the movie and it's just like exploded. Like my whole Instagram, like suggestion thing is all about this because it's figured out that I'm like only want to read about this for the rest of my life. So it's every single facet of this story. Initially I'm just like, could this be like, I figure out pretty quickly, they obviously really don't like each other. I vacillate constantly. Okay. Who's the asshole here? Here's what I'm thinking. And you can tell me your thoughts. I don't really, I, I felt very, very badly for Justin Baldoni initially, because he put this movie together and he like worked so hard and the whole cast isn't talking to him, David. It's the whole cast, including Colleen Hoover, including Colleen Hoover. Also, this is how I explained it to my friend. Like, My husband is like, really, really like supports women and like wants women to thrive. Is he giving a Ted talk about it? No, like somebody called Justin Baldoni a performative feminist. And I'm like, yeah, that's the word I'm looking for. Like, this feels like a lot. Why are you still talking about this? I sort of feel like people who are talking about this the way that he is, maybe are like, I don't know. Why are you talking about this so much? And every, yeah, yeah. I feel like he hired Olivia Pope. Right, oh my God. And Olivia Pope is taking Blake Lively down. There's something that just came out on Perez Hilton right before I got on this podcast that said, like, she's really worried about this, like, ending her career. I don't think it's going to end her career, but let me just tell you, I watched that interview, the 2016 interview, and I was like, ooh, girl, this is not a good look. Yeah. So what did you think about that? Did you watch that interview? I did. And I was... What'd you think? It seemed to me that there's got to be more there there. Okay. Because I love Parker Posey. Maybe. And it would be one thing if it was just Blake, but then it was both Blake and Parker Posey. And maybe they can just, they're both just like conceited snot. I mean, that is- Maybe, but could this like, yeah, what are your thoughts? What could be going on though? It just, I thought that journalist's timing was- Yeah, yeah. To use the young'un's word, sus. Just a little bit. And I also, yes, I got the performative feminism part from Justin Baldoine. I didn't know who he was before this movie. I was like, why is everyone giving him like such, I mean, now, yeah, I had no idea who he was. I knew who Blake was because hashtag gossip girl. Right. And Taylor Swift because they're like BFFs. So, yeah, I was very confused by the whole thing. And then seeing these old interviews where Blake is sort of... being dismissive and that it's not necessarily a good look. I wonder sometimes too, if... I do think we hold women to different standards. I think that is very true. And I wonder too, if she was in uncomfortable situations and she was trying to do something with humor that didn't work. I don't know. I don't think it's great. Like, I don't, and I don't think that, you know, she's perfect or in a, a thing, but I also wonder, there's just something a little bit of the timing of it. And it just feels like Justin Baldoni, okay. So I have, there's that theory. It's like either one against the other. The other thing that I wonder is obviously all of this has created very, very good press, no matter how you slice it. For Justin Baldoni. For the movie. For the movie, but like, oh my God, if you were Blake Lively, would this be worth it to you? I don't know. And it's almost like, I hadn't thought about this until today when I was like going back and thinking about Verity. And I'm like, oh wait, but maybe it's all a game. But I don't know. But he hired Olivia Pope. Like he hired, there's no way like somebody like Blake Lively could have signed herself up for this. Like, I feel like she's about to like leave the country. This is terrible. Like what people are saying about her on the internet. It's so bad. It is really bad. But people are still going to see the movie, and I think she still has a fan base. I don't know. Like, I don't think that she did it to herself. No. But I wonder if it's something that got out of hand. Why hasn't she come out? This is what I'm like, I don't understand. It's like, my suspicion is like he had to have done something really, really fucking weird, pardon my language, on this set. Well, that's what I think, yeah. At this point, wouldn't you have come out and done like an interview on like ABC or something about that? Or like you just... I think she's trying to like play the quiet game about it, but I wonder like if that's actually gonna work. I don't know. I think it's... Roasting her. Yeah, I think at some point she's gonna have to say something, but... Well, I don't know. Like I don't know like if the whole fat shaming thing is true, that you know, that he made comments about her weight and like... I don't know. And then I also, like, I don't follow Perez, but it keeps popping up because I think I am interested in... Me too. Me too. And he said something about how there are two different cuts in the movie. There was Justin's and there was Blake's. And originally they said that, you know, Blake's didn't test as well and Justin's did. And it was Justin's cut that made the cut and is what was released. But then Perez said, actually, no, it's Blake's version that actually made the cut and is what was released. I feel like I've known that, yeah, for a while. So, like, but the script got flipped. So I wonder, too, if it's like, if that comes out and that is verified as true, that like his cut of the movie like didn't make it and the cut of the movie that did make it has performed really, really well, like then that looks bad on him. I don't know. It's all very, very messy. I don't feel like he would have hired this person if he didn't do something really awful. But the person, right, because the person that he hired was, who did they represent? Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp, yeah. Of all the people to hire, you don't hire that person's crisis manager. If you didn't do something like whatever Johnny Depp did, then why are you hiring this person? We all know, I mean, we've all seen that documentary. Yeah, Amber Heard was crazy, but Johnny Depp is not an emotionally healthy individual. He's not without a lot of... a lot of issues that were all exposed from that. And we still all managed to root for him because of his incredible publicity. So, you know, I don't know, why are you hiring that person? It's, that's, of all the people you could hire, why would you hire that? Like I understand handing, hiring a crisis manager. That makes sense. Yeah, right. But you, there's a lot of them. Yeah. Why would you choose to hire? There's a lot of them. And she's not handling the crisis of the film, having all of this negative stuff around it. She's hiring, she's handling like, completely obliterating somebody else's reputation. Exactly. So, and that's what makes me feel like there's something a little, like even with the, the interview that resurfaced, like there seems to be more there than like, I just wonder what else is going on. Yeah, there's something like, I don't know if we're ever going to know. I can't believe we might never know. I'm dying to know. Well, and I mean, I obviously actors and movie stars are meant to portray a certain image and they are not all the people that... they are supposed to be on screen or in interviews. Like, you know, it's a job, it's acting. But there is something, like, I don't know. She seems, in many ways, to be very down to earth. She's still connected to people like, you know, like the whole Sisterhood, the Traveling Pants cast. They're still BFFs. They still are connected all of these years later. She's friends with Taylor Swift and that whole squad of like women who are like, are there to support each other and like be there for each other. And it doesn't seem to be in line with her character to do something so egregious unless there was like really a motivation. Yeah. Like no, not until this point, has anyone ever said anything about her really? Like they're dragging up all this stuff about how like she didn't get along with Leighton Meester. And I'm like, I probably wouldn't have gotten along with Leighton Meester. And then somebody else was bringing up that she was like on the set with someone who's like, Oh, really, I can't remember. Um, just like widely known as being extremely difficult. And even the article was saying, well, we'll give her a pass on this one. And I'm thinking, gosh, like if you had aggregated every single job I'd ever had. and every difficult encounter I've ever had into an article, like that wouldn't be fair. I was inclined when I was watching that, I expected more of her than what I saw in that interview. It made me really sad, but you know. Yeah, I think that interview is unfortunate. Pretty damning. It's pretty bad. I think everybody's trying to find like more evidence to, like that's the only thing we have on video of her behaving that way and that. egregious of a way, but then there's all these other little like tiny bits that people are trying to put together. I don't know. I think, but I think people could do that about me. Like, I'm sure there are people like, I'm like, of course I am not a perfect person and I know there are people who don't like me and like, we could do this about anyone. I mean, people like give really, I don't know, people evolve too. That was in 2016. I just feel like in recent history, she's been somebody who so many women have like looked up to is like being able to like have a great. marriage and have kids and still do something that she really loves doing and just be very authentically herself. She doesn't drink like, I don't know. She's just been like a really big role model for a lot of people. And I can't believe that like all of that is just some big, I don't think you could pretend that for that long. I could be, I don't know. I don't think I'm wrong, but I do. I do feel really badly for her. And I think like, no one's talking about Justin Baldoni anymore. And you've got an entire cast and an author. This author was over the moon that Justin Baldoni wanted to make a movie out of her book. It was all she talked about. Why isn't she saying anything about it now? Is it because he might be making the second movie? I don't get it. No, because he said somebody asked him about it and he said, I think Blake is ready to direct. Right. So like, I guess like he's just trying to kind of... He's out. He's out. He's completely out. Yeah. So I think there... And the fact to me, the fact that the author and all of the cast, like... from the very beginning, like, sidestepped any questions about him. Yeah. It's just very, very... All of them. How could they all be on the same page about that? Yeah, it doesn't... That's a... If that is calculated, that's a... I mean, there would have to be a ton of money out there, like, to make them band together. I don't know what they would have to do to do that, but, like, that's... It seems like that... It doesn't add up. So in this weird way, I feel like they're kind of like preserving his reputation. And I'm wondering why. Like if they all decided that they don't like him and that there was some reason for that, then like, why are they not sharing that? I wonder. I don't know. I wonder if it's just something that if they say it, it reflects badly on somebody like Blake. Or I don't know. Like... Or is embarrassing. Not badly on her, but like is an embarrassing story that they don't want to say. And that is the reason why they're not saying it, because she hasn't given permission to say it. Yeah, yeah. If they do come out and tell us, we're gonna have to do a whole other like emergency podcast on this. Cause I'm gonna need to debrief. I know we can do that. I'm totally up for that. Well, now I'm gonna have to go and watch the movie. Well, first I'm gonna read the book. First I'm gonna read the book and then I'm gonna watch the movie. And then I'm gonna figure out who Justin Baldoni is before it ends with us, because I didn't know. He was on Jane the Virgin. I don't know. I know. I read his credits and I was like, but how did he get to direct this movie? Like, that's... And people knew who he was. There is an answer to that question. And I just don't know what it is, but it was pretty epic. I don't remember. But he has his own production company, so... Yeah, because I knew he was on Jane the Virgin, and that was like a cult favorite, and I get it. But it's not like he's... And he's not Ryan Reynolds. You know, like he's not some big, you know, he's important, but he's not somebody like massive like that who is. And also too, here's my other thought about this whole thing, is it has been a year of Blake Lively, as you said, and her era, I mean, she was at the Super Bowl with Taylor Swift and like, she's been in all the right places with all the right people. Her companies are actually working and making a ton of money, as are her husband's. She was a surprise cameo in Deadpool. And I think when women especially, or anybody, but especially women are that successful, people look for reasons to take them down. 100%. And so I think they look for an excuse. And so that is, and I don't think people like her being an entrepreneur and a business person in addition to being a creative person. And again, too, what she has chosen to do for the most part is quote unquote, lowbrow. Like she doesn't do these Oscar bait type movies. She is not, you know, that's not what she's done. She's done things like a simple plan. She's done a sisterhood of the traveling pets, cult favorites, you know, like people love them, but they are not going to get her nominated for an Oscar. And this perhaps might have been the movie that was the perfect crossover to have gotten her nominated. because it was just enough pop and just enough serious where it could have been, you know, Oscar bait on the light side. It could be, I mean, yeah, yeah. Yeah, what would be crazy is that both of them get nominated and they have to show up the Oscars. Oh my God, I'm just waiting, just waiting to see if that happens. But you know what's funny is like, she launches this haircare line and I'm like, brilliant. Like what, I'm just thinking like, gosh, do you ever stop? Like who the... She has like enough money. Like she doesn't need to be doing this, but she still is. And I'm just blown away by her savvy. And I'm reading the comments and people are like, you have enough money. Most people were saying that. Then all this stuff comes out about Justin Baldoni and a lot of people in the comment section are taking his side. And one of the biggest arguments against her is she launched a haircare line instead of bringing attention to domestic violence. And I'm like, and then everybody's kind of piggybacking off of that. And I'm thinking, wow. Like I... I didn't think of it that way. I didn't think of her as not, I thought that her starring in this movie was bringing a lot of attention to domestic violence. I look back at the clips and I think, yeah, you could have been a lot more tactful with how you answered questions about domestic violence resources, but I don't think that going after her, I think it's a real reach to go after her, that she hasn't, she's like been in this movie. She like did more than most people by being in this movie. Am I, do you think I'm, do you agree with that? Or do you feel like? Yeah, and I also don't think it's also on, this is horrible, but like on brand for her to be the very serious person about that kind of topic. She's she is going to make a joke. She is going. And I don't know that she has it in her to be like. I'm going to list you all the stats and I'm going to sit here and have like a very NPR interview with you about, you know, domestic violence and its impact on women. Like, that's just not. Like, don't hire Blake Lively if that's what you want. Like, there are other actresses who can do that. And I don't think that was her, like, not caring. I think that she's been framed as this person who's like, life is too good to care. And like, that's so not true. Like, that's not who she is, I don't think. I don't get that at all. But I also think that we, as humans, have a very hard time holding two things in conflict that seemingly are in conflict at the same time. We have, we are very binary in our thinking. And I think that... most humans are way more complex than that. It's a summer movie. It's Colleen Hoover. I think her PR team probably said, light, fun, let's sell flowers and girly dresses and go see movies. That was the pitch. And she was doing what she was told to do. They didn't. I would say if she made a misstep in terms of misspeaking about domestic violence, it's the people who planned the marketing for the film. because that's not a singular person. That is not just Blake Lively, who is coming up with that whole marketing plan. It's an entire team of people. And so they all agreed before they started doing all these interviews and they put what the talking points were. And so they must have said that this is how we're going to talk about this movie, and it's not going to be about domestic violence. And obviously, Justin Baldoni, in order to save his own ass, decided that he was going to go and be the NPR, like, I'm going to talk about this. And you know. I mean, come on. I'm like, I'm frustrated that so many women are like, he's doing the right thing and she's not. And I'm like, guys, like, I don't know. It just, it feels so insincere to me. But isn't this very Colleen Hoover because this is sort of like the Jeremy of it all. It is. We've ended right where we started. Well, I have loved this conversation and we could keep going forever and ever, but I know we both are. That time is beckoning me at 9.15 and 10.15, your time. I know, and I have a 6 a.m. flight to catch tomorrow morning. Oh my God. But I can't wait to do this again. We're going to have to read another book and talk about this because this was way too much fun. Any book you want, I'm here for it. Oh, perfect. Well, thank you so much and thank you for joining us today. And there you have it, another episode of Inside the Design Studio and the Books. If you enjoyed this exploration of life's design, hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And hey, if you're feeling extra generous, leave us a review. Your thoughts fuel our creative journey. I'm David Peck, your design companion on this adventure. Until next time, keep crafting a life that's as captivating as your favorite masterpiece.

Join the book club! Laura Max Rose and David Peck dive deep into Colleen Hoover's Verity—a psychological thriller full of jaw-dropping twists.

Key takeaways

Verity is a masterfully constructed psychological thriller with unreliable narratives that challenge readers' perceptions.
Laura Max Rose's passion for Colleen Hoover's work stems from the emotional depth and complex character development in every book.
The It Ends with Us movie adaptation sparked significant discussion in the Colleen Hoover fan community about how the source material was represented.
Colleen Hoover's ability to weave dark secrets with compelling romance creates stories that resonate with readers across demographics.
Book club discussions provide valuable opportunities to explore themes of obsession, trust, and moral ambiguity in fiction.

Guests Appearing in this Episode

Laura Max Rose

Laura Max Rose is a passionate Colleen Hoover super fan, brilliant podcaster, and mom extraordinaire. Known for her contagious enthusiasm about Colleen Hoover's works, Laura brings deep insights and personal connections to every discussion about the author's psychological thrillers. She hosts her own podcast and frequently discusses her favorite Colleen Hoover books and adaptations.